I read the former essay recently, and will put the latter on my to-read docket. The Plough essay on paying manual laborers (shared this week) touches on some of this, too. And I had pulled up a Dorothy Sayers essay on work and really this is constantly on my mind!!
These things regarding money and finances are such a struggle because 1) we live in a broken world and economy where worthy work isn't always compensated and we can't always live on our passions (I know, I know that's not what anyone is fully advocating!) and 2) those lines between trust, generosity, stewardship, and prudence can be so so tricky to navigate when it comes to work. Like, my husband has a "good job" he enjoys for the most part, and that allows me to stay home in these young years even if we live in a smaller, older home than we'd like and saving money is still difficult. But goodness, I feel for the families who would love this setup but are making so much less for whatever reason, or the mom has to work something she hates in the little years or whatever.
So I always tread lightly and hopefully with humility because while we are doing fine (and are by many definitions very privileged), I realize the economy, housing market, inflation, childcare, etc is such that even the most frugal people are struggling these days. And many men in particular do take those higher paying professions not out of greed but an honest desire to love their families. I don't know, this is more conversation-level stuff, there is SO much here! haha Many mindsets around money are absorbed from our families of origin, too —but how much is wise and good, and how much of our decisions are based in fear or greed? Where does serving God and neighbor or creating a truly flourishing life come in? Even within our current state of things I think your approach to discernment is really needed. And, I always love hearing women talk about their unique approaches, of course. :)
I guess these topics are on a lot of people’s minds lately! I look forward to the Plough piece.
It’s so hard, isn’t it, in an imperfect world. So many people are just getting by and such a large portion of the world isn’t even doing that. Having the basics (food, shelter, clothing) covered but not being able to save much is a weird place to be because we find ourselves better off than so many, and yet still worried about the future. (I know many in this situation!) The line between trusting God and being happy to live poor(ish) vs relying on ourselves and building up a nest egg of some sort seems like a very wiggly line to me. It’s one thing to be young and carefree about work and money; it’s another to be ageing and have others to care for as well.
Wisdom and foolishness seem awfully close together on this topic. I wonder if even for the same person / family it can change by the day. I guess it’s a matter of trying to cultivate a spirit of trust and generosity until it becomes habitual.
I also love hearing how people navigate these waters! It’s hard bc most people don’t want to share about money publicly (understandably!) but it’s always helpful to hear how others discern- voices beyond Dave Ramsey would be great.
Something not directly addressed here is the fact that Christians who are financially blessed can use their excess to support their local brothers in ministry, or ministry-adjacent roles like Christian ed (many Christian schools can only pay a pittance, which drives men away from teaching where they could make a big impact).
I know a father of five who brought in at least $250K but lived relatively frugally with none of the vacation homes, boats, or cruises that a lot of people in that income bracket buy. Especially with good investing, he was able to donate over 50% his income each year. And he chose to give most of it to support local Christian causes. Some people serve the church with their time, but others serve financially!
I’ve been inspired to think about this recently because a friend chose to support my writing with a much higher monthly fee than I ask for on Substack. It’s been hard for us to tithe at our income level, but her choice to support us reminded me that monetary channels in the church flow every which way. We give in faith. We receive in faith. And if it’s truly an emergency and you can’t pay the bills, that’s time to ask the deacons for help!
I don’t really have any philosophy around money except to live frugally by buying everything second-hand and dumpster diving 😂 if I had more cash, I wouldn’t know what to do with it. So I’m going to follow this kind of writing closely in the hopes of learning more.
This is a really excellent point Amelia. Thanks for joining the conversation! I believe some people have a gift for making money and a charism of generosity and it is such a gift to the rest of us in the church! Would that more with the gift would use it well (although I guess that’s true of all of us, no matter the gift).
And I think establishing a habit of frugality never hurts! :) in my experience it’s much easier to begin when you’re on the younger than older side.
I think Jonathan and Amanda Teixeira at Wallet Win do a good job with financial literacy, although I haven’t read all their stuff. I like that they talk about generosity as a core reason to get your finances in order.
Yes! My parents were/are also very generous in this vein, but I do think the temptations are just so so high with those large incomes. More often than not, I see Christians just as prone to the usual life upgrades as soon as their salaries allow - but I'm always inspired by those who live well below their means even so, making generous room for service to the kingdom. This is extremely countercultural, and if we aren't being generous to the amount we feel it now, we probably won't do so if and when that income increases. "We give in faith. We receive in faith." as you said!
“If we aren't being generous to the amount we feel it now, we probably won't do so if and when that income increases.” Oof. This is a painful truth and so scriptural: faithful with a little, faithful with a lot.
We love Shepherd’s Pie but I don’t always love the mashed potatoes part — this topping idea is genius and so much faster. I’m definitely going to have to give it a whirl.
Re. the wealth topic…I think about this a lot too. I grew up in a family that I think truly idolized the “good job” perhaps largely due to my grandpa’s Depression era experiences. But it’s just such an odd perspective in some ways. Things like ingenuity and hard work and the ability to work with one’s hands were really trivialized. So it’s been this uphill battle throughout our marriage for me to not be holding my husband up to an arbitrary standard that is *really* not what I think, but where I still feel this weight of social stigma of anything that’s not a “good” job. Even though, not pursuing a job (doctor, lawyer, engineer etc…) like that has truly given us so much flexibility.
I do of course think about things like saving and retirement and was having a discussion with friends today about how people even pay for college. Our hope would be to give each of our children a lump sum or boost as they reach adulthood, but we can’t pay for college tuition! It’s just really complex, and with inflation and housing the way it is, seems like it’s only getting more so.
Right? So much less hassle than making mashed potatoes!
"Things like ingenuity and hard work and the ability to work with one’s hands were really trivialized." This is such an important point - what does our schooling and home life teach us to value? I'm really grateful to have married a hard worker who took on many different kinds of work in his youth. I think learning from a young age things like how to care for people, do manual labour, work with difficult people, and have a strong work ethic are actually worth so much more than getting good grades in school. They also carry more weight in life, no matter what kind of job you're in.
You know how there's that meme where it's like "Choose three" about time, and it's something like: sleep, a social life, exercise, alone time, etc... I think money is like that, especially with college the way it is now.
So, for most people it seems to be "Choose two" (or some other very limited number): tithing, retirement savings, college savings, primary/secondary school tuition, down payment, car payment, vacations — we put primacy on tithing (and my husband points out plenty of people don't give in the way Christians do, and so have extra money!) and saving for retirement (perhaps more important than college tuition at this point) but seriously how is anyone doing any (or all) of the other things on the median household income in addition to that? ha.
I once did one of those future college expense calculators and the suggested amount per month per child was WILD. I really think for a good chunk of people "paying for college tuition" is part of the definition of "affording children" but honestly if that's the case, no one would have more than one or two! (I once had a family member declare somewhat appalled "how could anyone afford FIVE kids?" and I gently pointed out it depends on what the definition of "afford" means.) I wonder what the educational / employment landscape will look like in a decade or two, because that cost is a real source of anxiety for parents and children alike.
I think - I hope- in the next 20 years that a college degree will become less normal. There are several contributing factors to this: the rise of Gen Z entering the trades, perhaps in part due to not wanting crushing debt, as well as the rise of AI. What is the point of paying for a degree if you're just going to use a robot to summarize the reading and do the writing on your behalf? (I don't say that as a good thing, just an observation.)
Degrees should be reserved for those who want to be scholars in a subject; certifications should be normal for practical things where proven capability is important.
The US job market also needs to shift: why are undergrad degrees (in any subject) a pre-req for almost any job? It's insane, because it isn't that the degree has prepared you in any way for most of the things that require it. I do think that's one thing the UK does better. On the one hand, they are obsessed with "qualifications" but on the other, they don't require a 4 year undergrad degree of everyone.
This "choose two" could also include "paying off school debt"... which sometimes puts people down to not being able to choose anything. That's a good point your husband makes though: maybe most people who seem to have extra budget are not necessarily living the open-to-life way of Christians and giving to God first. I don't know any families who are putting those things first that are exactly rolling in it. :)
As someone who unexpectedly found themselves in the sandwich generation (4 kids under 8 + a parent who was forced to retire due to unforeseen disability with no savings), I would say it’s prudent to save *something*. I don’t think the idea that you should have millions in the bank so you can spend your retirement years traveling Europe and playing golf is a correct Christian ideal. But saving nothing puts quite a bit of pressure on your kids who are probably just trying to take care of their kids ;) I have a lot more thoughts but I’ll leave it at that in a public comment. It did make me laugh that quite a few of the jobs she suggested require a great deal of expensive education!
I really wrestle with the virtue of prudence & often find myself on the opposite side of things with my fellow Catholics in this regard. What is trusting in Divine Providence and what is just plain foolishness? Ha! Something I am always mulling over.
These are great points! Thanks for sharing your experience. I think it’s so important to be prudent, and I guess it’s just a question of what that prudence looks like for each of us, especially in the face of unpredictable circumstances. There’s a line between “build bigger barns” and “have no barns” but it sure is difficult to know where that is.
Yes it’s really hard to predict! I have watched my parents take care of both my grandmothers. In one situation, it was best for my grandma to live with my parents for several years while my parents were the primary caregivers. In the other situation, it was best that my grandma was able to go into assisted living due to the scope of her care needs (and some personality differences 😉) and that she was able to afford it! It was really eye opening for me to see how circumstances can drastically change what needs to happen even within the same family that is willing to care for each other.
It also strikes me that to the extent that it’s possible, having a community (family, village, church, etc) who is willing to pitch in is probably the best way to “prepare” for things that are unpredictable, and as you point out, changing.
Thanks, Katie! I really loved these questions too- it’s something that I think about a lot, especially as the Boomer dream isn’t even available to most Millennials… but maybe that’s a good thing from a spiritual perspective?
I read the former essay recently, and will put the latter on my to-read docket. The Plough essay on paying manual laborers (shared this week) touches on some of this, too. And I had pulled up a Dorothy Sayers essay on work and really this is constantly on my mind!!
These things regarding money and finances are such a struggle because 1) we live in a broken world and economy where worthy work isn't always compensated and we can't always live on our passions (I know, I know that's not what anyone is fully advocating!) and 2) those lines between trust, generosity, stewardship, and prudence can be so so tricky to navigate when it comes to work. Like, my husband has a "good job" he enjoys for the most part, and that allows me to stay home in these young years even if we live in a smaller, older home than we'd like and saving money is still difficult. But goodness, I feel for the families who would love this setup but are making so much less for whatever reason, or the mom has to work something she hates in the little years or whatever.
So I always tread lightly and hopefully with humility because while we are doing fine (and are by many definitions very privileged), I realize the economy, housing market, inflation, childcare, etc is such that even the most frugal people are struggling these days. And many men in particular do take those higher paying professions not out of greed but an honest desire to love their families. I don't know, this is more conversation-level stuff, there is SO much here! haha Many mindsets around money are absorbed from our families of origin, too —but how much is wise and good, and how much of our decisions are based in fear or greed? Where does serving God and neighbor or creating a truly flourishing life come in? Even within our current state of things I think your approach to discernment is really needed. And, I always love hearing women talk about their unique approaches, of course. :)
I guess these topics are on a lot of people’s minds lately! I look forward to the Plough piece.
It’s so hard, isn’t it, in an imperfect world. So many people are just getting by and such a large portion of the world isn’t even doing that. Having the basics (food, shelter, clothing) covered but not being able to save much is a weird place to be because we find ourselves better off than so many, and yet still worried about the future. (I know many in this situation!) The line between trusting God and being happy to live poor(ish) vs relying on ourselves and building up a nest egg of some sort seems like a very wiggly line to me. It’s one thing to be young and carefree about work and money; it’s another to be ageing and have others to care for as well.
Wisdom and foolishness seem awfully close together on this topic. I wonder if even for the same person / family it can change by the day. I guess it’s a matter of trying to cultivate a spirit of trust and generosity until it becomes habitual.
I also love hearing how people navigate these waters! It’s hard bc most people don’t want to share about money publicly (understandably!) but it’s always helpful to hear how others discern- voices beyond Dave Ramsey would be great.
Something not directly addressed here is the fact that Christians who are financially blessed can use their excess to support their local brothers in ministry, or ministry-adjacent roles like Christian ed (many Christian schools can only pay a pittance, which drives men away from teaching where they could make a big impact).
I know a father of five who brought in at least $250K but lived relatively frugally with none of the vacation homes, boats, or cruises that a lot of people in that income bracket buy. Especially with good investing, he was able to donate over 50% his income each year. And he chose to give most of it to support local Christian causes. Some people serve the church with their time, but others serve financially!
I’ve been inspired to think about this recently because a friend chose to support my writing with a much higher monthly fee than I ask for on Substack. It’s been hard for us to tithe at our income level, but her choice to support us reminded me that monetary channels in the church flow every which way. We give in faith. We receive in faith. And if it’s truly an emergency and you can’t pay the bills, that’s time to ask the deacons for help!
I don’t really have any philosophy around money except to live frugally by buying everything second-hand and dumpster diving 😂 if I had more cash, I wouldn’t know what to do with it. So I’m going to follow this kind of writing closely in the hopes of learning more.
This is a really excellent point Amelia. Thanks for joining the conversation! I believe some people have a gift for making money and a charism of generosity and it is such a gift to the rest of us in the church! Would that more with the gift would use it well (although I guess that’s true of all of us, no matter the gift).
And I think establishing a habit of frugality never hurts! :) in my experience it’s much easier to begin when you’re on the younger than older side.
I think Jonathan and Amanda Teixeira at Wallet Win do a good job with financial literacy, although I haven’t read all their stuff. I like that they talk about generosity as a core reason to get your finances in order.
Yes! My parents were/are also very generous in this vein, but I do think the temptations are just so so high with those large incomes. More often than not, I see Christians just as prone to the usual life upgrades as soon as their salaries allow - but I'm always inspired by those who live well below their means even so, making generous room for service to the kingdom. This is extremely countercultural, and if we aren't being generous to the amount we feel it now, we probably won't do so if and when that income increases. "We give in faith. We receive in faith." as you said!
“If we aren't being generous to the amount we feel it now, we probably won't do so if and when that income increases.” Oof. This is a painful truth and so scriptural: faithful with a little, faithful with a lot.
We love Shepherd’s Pie but I don’t always love the mashed potatoes part — this topping idea is genius and so much faster. I’m definitely going to have to give it a whirl.
Re. the wealth topic…I think about this a lot too. I grew up in a family that I think truly idolized the “good job” perhaps largely due to my grandpa’s Depression era experiences. But it’s just such an odd perspective in some ways. Things like ingenuity and hard work and the ability to work with one’s hands were really trivialized. So it’s been this uphill battle throughout our marriage for me to not be holding my husband up to an arbitrary standard that is *really* not what I think, but where I still feel this weight of social stigma of anything that’s not a “good” job. Even though, not pursuing a job (doctor, lawyer, engineer etc…) like that has truly given us so much flexibility.
I do of course think about things like saving and retirement and was having a discussion with friends today about how people even pay for college. Our hope would be to give each of our children a lump sum or boost as they reach adulthood, but we can’t pay for college tuition! It’s just really complex, and with inflation and housing the way it is, seems like it’s only getting more so.
Right? So much less hassle than making mashed potatoes!
"Things like ingenuity and hard work and the ability to work with one’s hands were really trivialized." This is such an important point - what does our schooling and home life teach us to value? I'm really grateful to have married a hard worker who took on many different kinds of work in his youth. I think learning from a young age things like how to care for people, do manual labour, work with difficult people, and have a strong work ethic are actually worth so much more than getting good grades in school. They also carry more weight in life, no matter what kind of job you're in.
You know how there's that meme where it's like "Choose three" about time, and it's something like: sleep, a social life, exercise, alone time, etc... I think money is like that, especially with college the way it is now.
So, for most people it seems to be "Choose two" (or some other very limited number): tithing, retirement savings, college savings, primary/secondary school tuition, down payment, car payment, vacations — we put primacy on tithing (and my husband points out plenty of people don't give in the way Christians do, and so have extra money!) and saving for retirement (perhaps more important than college tuition at this point) but seriously how is anyone doing any (or all) of the other things on the median household income in addition to that? ha.
I once did one of those future college expense calculators and the suggested amount per month per child was WILD. I really think for a good chunk of people "paying for college tuition" is part of the definition of "affording children" but honestly if that's the case, no one would have more than one or two! (I once had a family member declare somewhat appalled "how could anyone afford FIVE kids?" and I gently pointed out it depends on what the definition of "afford" means.) I wonder what the educational / employment landscape will look like in a decade or two, because that cost is a real source of anxiety for parents and children alike.
I think - I hope- in the next 20 years that a college degree will become less normal. There are several contributing factors to this: the rise of Gen Z entering the trades, perhaps in part due to not wanting crushing debt, as well as the rise of AI. What is the point of paying for a degree if you're just going to use a robot to summarize the reading and do the writing on your behalf? (I don't say that as a good thing, just an observation.)
Degrees should be reserved for those who want to be scholars in a subject; certifications should be normal for practical things where proven capability is important.
The US job market also needs to shift: why are undergrad degrees (in any subject) a pre-req for almost any job? It's insane, because it isn't that the degree has prepared you in any way for most of the things that require it. I do think that's one thing the UK does better. On the one hand, they are obsessed with "qualifications" but on the other, they don't require a 4 year undergrad degree of everyone.
This "choose two" could also include "paying off school debt"... which sometimes puts people down to not being able to choose anything. That's a good point your husband makes though: maybe most people who seem to have extra budget are not necessarily living the open-to-life way of Christians and giving to God first. I don't know any families who are putting those things first that are exactly rolling in it. :)
Yes yes yes. Goodness, a lot here.
As someone who unexpectedly found themselves in the sandwich generation (4 kids under 8 + a parent who was forced to retire due to unforeseen disability with no savings), I would say it’s prudent to save *something*. I don’t think the idea that you should have millions in the bank so you can spend your retirement years traveling Europe and playing golf is a correct Christian ideal. But saving nothing puts quite a bit of pressure on your kids who are probably just trying to take care of their kids ;) I have a lot more thoughts but I’ll leave it at that in a public comment. It did make me laugh that quite a few of the jobs she suggested require a great deal of expensive education!
I really wrestle with the virtue of prudence & often find myself on the opposite side of things with my fellow Catholics in this regard. What is trusting in Divine Providence and what is just plain foolishness? Ha! Something I am always mulling over.
These are great points! Thanks for sharing your experience. I think it’s so important to be prudent, and I guess it’s just a question of what that prudence looks like for each of us, especially in the face of unpredictable circumstances. There’s a line between “build bigger barns” and “have no barns” but it sure is difficult to know where that is.
Yes it’s really hard to predict! I have watched my parents take care of both my grandmothers. In one situation, it was best for my grandma to live with my parents for several years while my parents were the primary caregivers. In the other situation, it was best that my grandma was able to go into assisted living due to the scope of her care needs (and some personality differences 😉) and that she was able to afford it! It was really eye opening for me to see how circumstances can drastically change what needs to happen even within the same family that is willing to care for each other.
It also strikes me that to the extent that it’s possible, having a community (family, village, church, etc) who is willing to pitch in is probably the best way to “prepare” for things that are unpredictable, and as you point out, changing.
Yummy -- can't wait to try this recipe!
Hope you enjoy! It’s excellent with ground lamb, but that tends to be quite expensive and not easy to come by in the US.
Gonna be honest, I made a shepherd's pie with lamb a few months ago and did *not* care for the taste! :')
Ahahaha maybe it’s just a British thing! I never ate lamb in America but it’s ubiquitous here.
I love this series! Totally going to try that recipe :)) And such thought-provoking an important questions being asked here re vocation money etc.
Thanks, Katie! I really loved these questions too- it’s something that I think about a lot, especially as the Boomer dream isn’t even available to most Millennials… but maybe that’s a good thing from a spiritual perspective?